A Simple Conversation

Recently, I've gotten myself into a bit of an exchange with another atheist while online...  She made a statement about Senators Obama and McCain and the politics of America - I commented with regard to the political and religious views as well as the issue of the "Separation of Church & State" (which is not part of the Bill of Rights mind you, rather a letter from President Jefferson to the Baptists in Danbury Connecticut - a fine little community, though not very Baptist anymore) But I digress...

She wrote back, and I'll let her speak for herself here...

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benjamin, the thing about Christianity is that there are so many varieties of Christians and all varieties accusing other varieties of not being "true" or "real" Christians. The Bible is NOT a clearly written book, most of it can be interpreted in so many different ways and most Christians cherry-pick what they want to take from the Bible and what they want to leave behind. Take the book of Leviticus, for example. Thank human goodness that most Christians choose not to take that book literally. Some, do however, take certain things from the Bible to use to oppress others and discriminate. They take what they want and interpret parts to support whatever cause he or she wants to justify.

Senator Obama has professed to be a true Christian, accepting Christ as his personal savior. From what I can see he is very devout in his beliefs and since the god beliefs are so important to Republicans and evangelical voters, the Dems found a candidate that will pander to these voters, hoping enough to get him elected for the good of the party.

As for the Separation of Church and State, the Constitution is quite clear. There is no misunderstanding unless you have a religious agenda and wish to interject religion into a secular government:

"The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits the establishment of a national religion by the Congress or the preference of one religion over another, or religion over non-religion. Originally, the First Amendment only applied to the federal government. Subsequently, under the incorporation doctrine, certain selected provisions were applied to states. It was not, however, until the middle and later years of the twentieth century that the Supreme Court began to interpret the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses in such a manner as to restrict the promotion of religion by state governments. For example, in the Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet, 512 U.S. 687 (1994), Justice David Souter, writing for the majority, concluded that "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion"."

Separation of Church and State must be upheld to protect the religious and non-religious alike. We are a secular nation full of diverse people with many different beliefs and many who hold no beliefs in supernatural entities. Religion belongs in the churches, mosques, synagogues, and private lives of believers.

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So here is the part where I beg your forgiveness because I tend to get a little long in the tooth with my replies...  And believe me, I'm working on that.  I feel that I should, at this point, state for the record that what you are about to read is neither an endorsement nor an admittance of support for either of the "presumed" Presidential candidates...  I know I'm not going to vote for Senator Obama, however, whether or not I'm going to write someone in is yet, in my mind "Undecided" - anyway, here is my response...

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Stardust:

With all due respect, your ideas regarding Christianity are skewed. No doubt you would consider the Roman Catholic Church to be a "Christian" church simply because they refer to themselves as such. When in fact, their faith is based upon doctrine that is not even found in the Bible, but rather the imaginations of 265 men who considered themselves to be the rightful successors of the Apostle Peter himself.

The "church" holds Mary the mother of Jesus in a role she was never (according to the Bible) meant to be in. Sinless, and venerated alongside of Christ Himself. Which is idolatry, and clearly condemned by the Word of God - which disqualifies the RCC from any claim to being actual, or as you put it "true" Christians.

A real or true Christian is one who is a follower of Christ and His teachings... That seems pretty clear to me, no reason to muddy up the water by throwing my own opinions on the matter... Acts Chapter 11 defines those who were Jesus' followers (His disciples) as Christians...

Now, you ARE right, the Bible can be interpreted in many different ways, however, there is only one way to interpret it in order to understand what it is try to say... Which is to read each verse, chapter and book for what it claims to be... Considering who wrote the words, who they were writing to, what was happening at the time, what the culture was like, and what was there motivation, the reason they were writing it?

Genesis was explaining how God created everything - the first chapter tells us the chronology of the events, the second chapter steps away from chronology and explains with a little more detail. He tells of how life began, where it began, and the steps He took in the actual creation of man (and woman)... Chapter 1 says that He did it, and in what order - Chapter 2 tells us how and why...

To borrow one of your phrases with a little editing... "there is no misunderstanding unless you have a man-centered or evolutionary agenda and wish to interject billions of years into a 6-day story..."

Now, with regard to "cherry-picking" a term my mother used a couple of years ago that's just never quite sat right with me, however, after talking with dozens of atheists over the past couple of years, I've grown very familiar with it... I would not, and no Bible-believing Christian I know would suggest that you cherry-pick your way through God's Word... Because every word of Scripture is inspired by God and is therefore useful for teaching us what is true, and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. Every word, verse, chapter and book is important for understanding God's Will because every word is good for instruction in righteousness... (2 Timothy 3:16)

Some Christians believe that Jesus' words (the Red Letters) are more important than the other passages of the Bible, however, when we consider that Jesus IS God, and that God inspired every word therein, one passage is therefore not more important than any other...

When it comes to taking Leviticus literally, I would suggest that you only do that if you are a member of the nation of Israel in that time period that those laws were given... Once again, we need to consider who was writing the words, when the words were being written, what was happening in the culture and why...

I'm trying to assume that you are familiar with the Bible because most professed atheists I've spoken to are quite versed in scripture, it's just that most of them have cherry-picked the parts of the Bible they'd rather not agree with, and have decided that God could not exist if those particular verses hold any truth. Therefore, I'm not going to get into the finer points of Hermeneutical study with you because I'm sure you're familiar with the term, even if you don't understand how to use the skills of interpretation.

When it comes to the reason why Christians would ignore the ceremonial and levitical laws, and continue to embrace the Mosaic and Moral Law is found in the concept of Progressive Revelation... The Old Testament Laws were put into place to help govern the people of Israel, so that they would have a guide as to how to judge the different activities and offenses that would occur in the lives of the nation. They also gave instruction for the atonement of the sins that were being committed... The covering of the sins, not the forgiveness... There was a difference.

Then, just as the prophets said He would in more than 40 different instances throughout the Old Testament, and later confirmed by the New Testament writers, Jesus became the atonement, the very sacrifice that was necessary for the nation of Israel (God's people) to be forgiven (have their sins cleansed - not just covered). Jesus said that He did not come to do away with the Law, but to fulfill it... He was speaking of Moses' Laws (the Moral Law - the Ten Commandments) How do we know? Because He spelled it out for us in Matthew Chapter 19:16-22 / Mark Chapter 10:17-22 & Luke Chapter 18:18-23...

Now, I noticed that you consider God / The Bible to be mythology, yet you believe the scientific opinions regarding the earth's origins, man's origins, and presumably the origins of the universe written by people who could not have possibly observed any of the events in question, and refer to it all as facts... I'm not trying to insult your intelligence here, so please don't insult mine...

You assert the idea that some people take things from the Bible in order to oppress others and discriminate - and again, you would prefer to believe that these people are actual Christians simply because they claim to be so... While at the same time you would not believe for one second that anyone who was beating a cow with a cattle-prod was a member of PETA, even if they showed you a card... Or perhaps, an illustration that hits a little closer to home... You would not allow a person who seriously professed to believe in some sort of higher power to refer to themselves as an atheist - because that belief would disqualify the person from the truest definition of the term atheist...

And such is the case with Christianity... Jesus never taught His followers to oppress or discriminate. Therefore, anyone who comes in His name, in order to oppress or discriminate is not, once again as you put it a "real" or "true" Christian. If what they are choosing to use to justify their actions does not line up with the rest of the Bible - then it is heresy, and the person should be considered a heretic - and there are plenty of them out there... The Apostles ran into them in their day, and you know yourself that there are no shortage of them running around with their own Sunday morning, Divine Healing, send us your love offering, charlatan programs today...

You said it yourself regarding Senator Obama, he is a panderer... By his own testimony, he is not a follower of the Christ of the Bible... He is a follower of the jesus of his imagination, which makes him an idolator, which means that he might as well be catholic... I don't hate the man, I simply know a wolf when I see one, no matter what political party supplied the sheep's clothing... I do not like John McCain's "Christian" testimony either, however, he is at least standing for ideals that are more Christ-like than Obama's. To be in favor of abortion, and gay marriage goes against Biblical teaching - and that's all there is to it...

Now, I'm not suggesting that we shoot all the abortion doctors and put all of the would-be mothers in prison for murder, however, I am saying that killing ANYONE who has not yet had a chance to live for the sake of convenience or guilt, etc. is not right... Senator Obama supports a woman's right to kill her unborn baby, Senator McCain opposes it. Their religious beliefs don't really have to have anything to do with it... But at least Obama claims that his do... And his beliefs contradict those of the Bible...

Neither am I saying that "God hates fags" as other self-professed "Christians" have chosen to do... I do not think that homosexuals are any worse than heterosexuals or any other human being for that matter... I myself was guilty of a boat-load of sexual sins before God showed me mercy and saved me - and I believe that ANYONE living in the midst of sin can be redeemed without discrimination - simply by hearing the Word of God preached rightly, and responding in kind. (Romans 10:14)

Senator Obama believes that whoever wants to get married should be allowed to get married, no matter who they are. Senator McCain has stated that he believes that marriage is the union of one man and one woman... Without invoking the name of any deity, that sounds pretty cut and dried to me... Outside of all of the statistics of disease and psychological problems incurred by the children of "same sex unions" or marriages - the sexual relations between two men, or two women are contrary to that of the Bible that Senator Obama says we should all be reading...

He specifically quotes that we should all remember that Jesus said "whatever you do for the least of my brothers, you do for me (Christ)" And ignores the rest of the Bible... Your accusation of cherry-picking falls squarely upon the shoulders of one you consider to be "very devout."

The only "true" or "real" Christian votes he might get are those who have either not read their Bible, or did not understand what they were reading when they did... Because anyone who would vote for a candidate who believes in the murder of the unborn, or is in support of the literal dismantling of the traditional family is not a follower of the Jesus of the Bible...

And finally, I've gotten around to the "Separation of Church and State" issue... I am sincerely going to attempt to make this short this time...

I never suggested, nor do I believe that there should be any establishment of a national religion... I'll be honest when I say that I did appreciate the House of Representatives did to recognize Christianity (H.R. 847 I think it was) But I digress - I'm not going to dispute the idea that the original intent has been redefined over the past 200+ years. One only has to travel to Washington D.C. or Philadelphia in order to witness how history is being revised to cut God out of American culture everyday...

I thank God and our founding fathers for the foresight they had in writing journals and establishing a Library of Congress where original history could be preserved for anyone who is interested in knowing the truth, and is willing to look for it, rather than just take another person's word for it.

While I will agree that this nation is not the "Christian" nation many would like to believe it is, it was certainly not founded based upon "secular" ideals... The original Mayflower Compact will tell you that much.

I feel it necessary to correct your statement that there are "many who hold no beliefs in supernatural entities" when in fact, there are only "some" perhaps even more accurate to use the word "few" as the percentage at last glance was hovering somewhere around 5% of the American population depending on whose numbers you go by... And 15 million is not a very big number in evolutionary terms.

I'm not trying to say that numbers should be a determining factor in how our country is run, I was just having some fun with numbers - at your expense yes, but fun nonetheless.

Here's one that'll kick you in the pants - I would suggest to you that the percentage of "true" or "real" Christians in America is only slightly higher than the number of atheists... No matter what the polls show... Bring me 100 professing Christians and a Holy Bible, and I'll bet you that right around 10 of them, maybe one or two less would respond rightly to the criteria of a true Believer as laid out in the Word of God...

What's unfortunate to me is that atheists are the fastest growing (non?)faith in America... While Christianity is the fastest growing in China and Africa... And we won't even talk about the decline in America - but we're working on it... We just need to be reminded of the fact that our faith, not our religion, needs to be lived out and preached in the streets, not just hidden in our hearts...

BTW, search the Bible for the phrase "accept Jesus as your personal Savior" it's not there. If he was a "true" Christian, why would he refer to the time when he realized his sins before a Holy God, and dropped to his knees in repentance toward God, and put his faith in Jesus Christ alone for his salvation?" I mean, I realize that it's a little wordy, but at least that explanation is found in Scripture...