Recently, I was commenting on a "daily Bible verse" application on my Facebook Wall, and when I, as sometimes happens, attempted to correct the understanding of another commentator regarding the original intent and proper hermeneutical understanding of the passage, I was challenged in my own understanding of who God is... For your consideration, I would like to share the Scripture passage, the original posts from the application, as well as the email exchange that followed...
"For the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with salvation."
(Psalm 149:4)
Bridgette wrote:(Psalm 149:4)
"Never forget that the Lord adores us. He hates the sin but still loves us; we're his children. "
To which I replied:
"@Bridgette, God is not up in heaven swooning over us - the phrase, "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" is one made famous by Ghandi, who, by all accounts died in his sins... And God calls all people everywhere to repent of their sins... To die in our sins brings about eternal condemnation...
Now, God DOES love the world - so much in fact that He died for it. (John 3:16) As one Pastor I love once put it, His love is not a pampering love, but a perfecting love... And make no mistake, He hates workers of iniquity (evildoers, sinners - those who hate Him) which is anyone who does not love Him... Psalm 5:5
And there is no neutral gear with God, by nature, we are at war with Him, but by His grace we are able to receive His forgiveness - without it, we are not His children, rather we are still children of the devil... John 8
When I returned home from work this afternoon, I was met with the following message in my inbox...
Brittney wrote:
It's mind blowing to see the millions of Christians that think the Lord HATES sinners and is even angry at us. When quite the contrary, he is a loving and fair God. In fact, the Bible states that "God is LOVE" and even describes him as a father figure caring for and loving his children. So how could the God of Love be angry and condemning towards us?
Now, that is not to say that he allows us to get away with sinning. As do all fathers, he corrects his children if we do wrong. Romans 2:9-11 (the message bible) says this clearly,
"If you go against the grain, you get splinters regardless of which neighborhood you're from, what your parents have taught you, what schools you attended."So does this mean he is hateful? When your parent's corrected you as a child, it did not mean that they hated you. They did it out of love, as does God who is the perfect parent and example to all.
Here are some examples of his love for us:
God your thoughts about me are priceless. No one can possibly add them all up. If I could count them they would be more than the grains of sand. If I were to fall asleep counting and then wake up you would still be there with me.
Psalm 139:17 -18
17The Lord your God is in the midst of you, a Mighty One, a Savior [Who saves]! He will rejoice over you with joy; He will rest [in silent satisfaction] and in His love He will be silent and make no mention [of past sins, or even recall them]; He will exult over you with singing.
Zephaniah 3:17
(These are just a few of the scriptures that tell of his love for us)
That doesn't sound like a God we are "at war with."
And with that, I got out my Bible, said a prayer, and after three hours of searching the Scriptures, considering how I might respond, the following is what I came up with...
Brittney,
I appreciate your response, and thank you for using scripture to back up your point - it is really refreshing in light of the culture that wants to define their faith according to their feelings, rather than the very words the faith was founded upon...
I agree with you that God IS Love, the Bible clearly states that - however, what I wrote and quoted WAS scripture that states that "God hates all workers of iniquity" (Psalm 5:5 - NKJV). The Amplified Bible uses the word "abhor" which is to regard with disgust or hatred.
I'm sure you've looked up the passage for yourself, though I'm not sure you saw the same thing I saw because of the type of Bible you are reading, which is known as a "paraphrase" edition. It is not based upon the original greek and hebrew texts used to compile the books and letters that make up the holy canonical text - it is based in the idea that God's Word can be brought down to a level that anyone can understand by attempting to put His Words into popular and even culturally relevant thoughts and phrases...
For instance, Psalm 5:5, which is the very passage I reference in my original comment, as well as above - THE MESSAGE reads: "Hot-Air-Boaster collapses in front of you; you shake your head over Mischief-Maker." I have to say that I've been around the block a time or two, but without knowing the original texts, I would have never guessed that "hot air boaster collapses in front of you" would equate to "the foolish (boaster) shall not stand in Your sight." This is just one person's opinion here, but THE MESSAGE doesn't seem to make the same impact that the original Hebrew does, and as we move on to "you shake your head over Mischief-Maker" it appears to make light of sin, which Jesus says is worthy of eternal condemnation if one should die in the midst of them...
To move on to your other references - Psalm 139:17-18 - I'd like to point out that the passage you've referred to is written to believers, while the point I was making was aimed at those who are in the midst of willful sin - these two people are different people and of different fathers. The author is clearly a believer, full of faith in the coming Savior - those words are not written about a person who is a "worker of iniquity" (John 8:34-35) but rather a "worker of righteousness" (Romans 6: 15-23) not without sin, mind you - but one of God's children, rather than the devil's. (1 John 3:10-15)
Again, in the second reference you made, note the opening words of the passage, "the Lord your God... ...a Savior..." Those who are not yet forgiven have no part in this passage... Those who have been saved, and who are (in the process of) being saved do... sort of...
You see, that passage is not for you and me - or for any other modern-day believer for that matter... I was part of a prophecy meant for the people of Israel in Jerusalem at that time... It DOES proclaim a truth about God, there is no denying that, but we cannot today latch onto it and say, 'that is what God wants me to know about Himself for me today..." Because that is simply not the case...
When you read the whole chapter in it's context, you'll see that the first part of the chapter is pronouncing God's judgment for the people, and God's hope for the people - Israelites in Jerusalem... We cannot simply pull a scripture out of the context and claim its truth for our lives today without considering the setting in which it was originally intended to serve...
Like you, I too, am opposed to people running around telling people, "God hates you if you don't love Him..." I'd be writing the same type of letter you've written to me if I were to come across someone who brought that type of message to a public discussion of faith and scripture...
But please notice that I not only mentioned God's hatred, but also His grace... This is one arena that the "millions" you referred to in your message to me are not interested in going into - for whatever reason... But we, as believers are commanded to warn of the wrath to come, and testify of His grace to save... Remember Jude's admonition in verses 20 through 23...
When it comes to being "at war with God" - consider Romans 8:1-11... Notice that it is addressed to those who are "in Christ" and then goes on to describe the differences between those who are "in the Spirit" compared to those who are still "in the flesh"...
Verse 7 says clearly that "the carnal mind is 'enmity' with [or against] God" one way (the most commonly accepted way) that enmity is defined is, as hatred for, or a state of war against someone... Once again, the person being described here is the person who still lives in their sins - they have not been forgiven, they have not repented and believed, they are not a child of God...
THE MESSAGE says the following... "Focusing on the self is the opposite of focusing on God. Anyone completely absorbed in self ignores God, ends up thinking more about self than God. That person ignores who God is and what he is doing."
Nowhere in that text is the seriousness of the error of hostility toward God displayed, and once again, a very low view of what God has written has been offered giving preference to an easier way to consider what might otherwise be taken as harsh words... It's ironic to see that the paraphrase of THE MESSAGE speaks of ignoring who God is and what He is doing, in the very verses that in the original greek point out that what we are ACTUALLY doing is acting out in a hostile way toward God - not just "focusing on self."
And I'll close with this... God DOES love the world, the proof is in the fact that, as you pointed out, and I agreed that the Bible DOES say, He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever would believe in Him, might have everlasting life... However, His ETERNAL love is for those He saves, those who love Him - those who are convicted of their sins in the light of His holy law, and believe the gospel... To them, he gives the gifts of repentance and faith, which leads to salvation... The work involved is, and has been done, by Him alone - the only thing we can do is receive it... Acts 17:30
Thank you again for your response, I hope that we can talk about any concerns you might have regarding anything I've written - I am not at all interested in dropping all of this in your lap with the hope that you'll never question another person's opinions ever again... When Paul preached, the Bereans searched the scriptures to see if what he was telling them was true according to the very words that God had given...
Be encouraged, keep on questioning that which does not line up with what you've been taught - and never stop seeking His understanding above and beyond your fellow man...
May God bless you in your questioning...
-Benjamin
Brittney,
I appreciate your response, and thank you for using scripture to back up your point - it is really refreshing in light of the culture that wants to define their faith according to their feelings, rather than the very words the faith was founded upon...
I agree with you that God IS Love, the Bible clearly states that - however, what I wrote and quoted WAS scripture that states that "God hates all workers of iniquity" (Psalm 5:5 - NKJV). The Amplified Bible uses the word "abhor" which is to regard with disgust or hatred.
I'm sure you've looked up the passage for yourself, though I'm not sure you saw the same thing I saw because of the type of Bible you are reading, which is known as a "paraphrase" edition. It is not based upon the original greek and hebrew texts used to compile the books and letters that make up the holy canonical text - it is based in the idea that God's Word can be brought down to a level that anyone can understand by attempting to put His Words into popular and even culturally relevant thoughts and phrases...
For instance, Psalm 5:5, which is the very passage I reference in my original comment, as well as above - THE MESSAGE reads: "Hot-Air-Boaster collapses in front of you; you shake your head over Mischief-Maker." I have to say that I've been around the block a time or two, but without knowing the original texts, I would have never guessed that "hot air boaster collapses in front of you" would equate to "the foolish (boaster) shall not stand in Your sight." This is just one person's opinion here, but THE MESSAGE doesn't seem to make the same impact that the original Hebrew does, and as we move on to "you shake your head over Mischief-Maker" it appears to make light of sin, which Jesus says is worthy of eternal condemnation if one should die in the midst of them...
To move on to your other references - Psalm 139:17-18 - I'd like to point out that the passage you've referred to is written to believers, while the point I was making was aimed at those who are in the midst of willful sin - these two people are different people and of different fathers. The author is clearly a believer, full of faith in the coming Savior - those words are not written about a person who is a "worker of iniquity" (John 8:34-35) but rather a "worker of righteousness" (Romans 6: 15-23) not without sin, mind you - but one of God's children, rather than the devil's. (1 John 3:10-15)
Again, in the second reference you made, note the opening words of the passage, "the Lord your God... ...a Savior..." Those who are not yet forgiven have no part in this passage... Those who have been saved, and who are (in the process of) being saved do... sort of...
You see, that passage is not for you and me - or for any other modern-day believer for that matter... I was part of a prophecy meant for the people of Israel in Jerusalem at that time... It DOES proclaim a truth about God, there is no denying that, but we cannot today latch onto it and say, 'that is what God wants me to know about Himself for me today..." Because that is simply not the case...
When you read the whole chapter in it's context, you'll see that the first part of the chapter is pronouncing God's judgment for the people, and God's hope for the people - Israelites in Jerusalem... We cannot simply pull a scripture out of the context and claim its truth for our lives today without considering the setting in which it was originally intended to serve...
Like you, I too, am opposed to people running around telling people, "God hates you if you don't love Him..." I'd be writing the same type of letter you've written to me if I were to come across someone who brought that type of message to a public discussion of faith and scripture...
But please notice that I not only mentioned God's hatred, but also His grace... This is one arena that the "millions" you referred to in your message to me are not interested in going into - for whatever reason... But we, as believers are commanded to warn of the wrath to come, and testify of His grace to save... Remember Jude's admonition in verses 20 through 23...
When it comes to being "at war with God" - consider Romans 8:1-11... Notice that it is addressed to those who are "in Christ" and then goes on to describe the differences between those who are "in the Spirit" compared to those who are still "in the flesh"...
Verse 7 says clearly that "the carnal mind is 'enmity' with [or against] God" one way (the most commonly accepted way) that enmity is defined is, as hatred for, or a state of war against someone... Once again, the person being described here is the person who still lives in their sins - they have not been forgiven, they have not repented and believed, they are not a child of God...
THE MESSAGE says the following... "Focusing on the self is the opposite of focusing on God. Anyone completely absorbed in self ignores God, ends up thinking more about self than God. That person ignores who God is and what he is doing."
Nowhere in that text is the seriousness of the error of hostility toward God displayed, and once again, a very low view of what God has written has been offered giving preference to an easier way to consider what might otherwise be taken as harsh words... It's ironic to see that the paraphrase of THE MESSAGE speaks of ignoring who God is and what He is doing, in the very verses that in the original greek point out that what we are ACTUALLY doing is acting out in a hostile way toward God - not just "focusing on self."
And I'll close with this... God DOES love the world, the proof is in the fact that, as you pointed out, and I agreed that the Bible DOES say, He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever would believe in Him, might have everlasting life... However, His ETERNAL love is for those He saves, those who love Him - those who are convicted of their sins in the light of His holy law, and believe the gospel... To them, he gives the gifts of repentance and faith, which leads to salvation... The work involved is, and has been done, by Him alone - the only thing we can do is receive it... Acts 17:30
Thank you again for your response, I hope that we can talk about any concerns you might have regarding anything I've written - I am not at all interested in dropping all of this in your lap with the hope that you'll never question another person's opinions ever again... When Paul preached, the Bereans searched the scriptures to see if what he was telling them was true according to the very words that God had given...
Be encouraged, keep on questioning that which does not line up with what you've been taught - and never stop seeking His understanding above and beyond your fellow man...
May God bless you in your questioning...
-Benjamin
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